EPISODE 14
Bach, Faith, and the Future of Classical Music
with Chad Smith | president & CEO, Boston Symphony Orchestra
Last August, the Tanglewood Learning Institute hosted the first live-filmed conversations for BACH 52. The first of these features Chad Smith, President & CEO of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, in a wide-ranging conversation about Bach, classical music’s evolving place in contemporary culture, and the role of major artistic institutions as civic and cultural stewards.
Bach, Spirituality, and the Concert Hall as Civic Space
Our conversation began, quite naturally, with biography. Chad spoke about discovering Bach through singing — first in the church, then in college — and through the cantatas that filled his Sundays at Emmanuel Music in Boston. Listening to him describe those formative experiences — and recalling my earlier BACH 52 conversations with Emmanuel musicians and clergy in Episodes 8, 10, and 11 — I am continually struck by the ripple effects of Emmanuel’s influence on our musical world.That world of devotion, community, and routine artistry left an imprint on him, and it informed the way he now thinks about ritual, faith, and the spaces where we gather to listen. From there, the discussion widened to touch on the concert hall as a kind of secular cathedral, the persistence of spiritual longing in an increasingly secular age, and the ways art can function as a public good.
Because this episode was filmed live at Tanglewood, its structure mirrors the event itself, which contained more music than the pre-filmed webisodes normally do. The first aria comes from BWV 7, Christ unser Herr zum Jordan kam, a cantata written for the Feast of St. John the Baptist. Scored for tenor and two violins, it paints the scene of Christ’s baptism at the River Jordan with striking clarity. Its numerological symmetry and Trinitarian imagery evoke purification and renewal — both liturgical and human. This aria first appeared in Episode 1 of BACH 52, and makes a reprise here as the aria featured in my conversation with Chad.
The episode concludes with an aria from BWV 119, Preise, Jerusalem, den Herrn, written for the inauguration of the Leipzig town council. BWV 119 looks outward as a blessing for the city and its inhabitants, imagining civic life as something worthy of ceremony, festivity, and song. After a conversation about institutions, public ritual, and the artist as citizen, it felt fitting to close with a work that collapses the distance between sacred space and civic space, reminding us that Bach lived not only in the church but also in the life of a city.
ARIAS
Wohl dir du Wolk der Linden from Lob sei und Ehr dem höchsten Gut, BWV 119
PERFORMERS
Nicholas Phan, tenor
Les Délices | Debra Nagy, director
Oboes da caccia: Debra Nagy, Meg Owens
Viola da gamba: Rebecca Landell
Organ: Mark Edwards
SOUND (BWV 119 only): Joel Negus | VIDEO (BWV 119 only): Clubsoda Productions with Ken Wendt assisting
Des Vaters Stimme ließ sich hören from Christ unser Herr sum Jordan kam, BWV 7
PERFORMERS
Ruckus Early Music
Violins: Katie Hyun, Owen Dalby
Viola da gamba: Doug Balliett
Bassoon: Clay Zeller-Townson
Theorbo: Joshua Stauffer
Harpsichord: Elliot Figg
SOUND (BWV 7 only): Lolly Lewis | VIDEO (BWV 7 only): Clubsoda Productions
This episode was filmed in partnership with Noe Music, Les Délices, and the Tanglewood Learning Institute.
This project is a fiscally sponsored project of FRACTURED ATLAS.
To find our more information and to make a TAX-DEDUCTIBLE donation to support the continuation of this project please click the button below
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] N PHAN: Do you think the music of Bach is for everyone?
[00:00:04] A TILBROOK: I th- no, I don't think so. I mean, I think, I think it should be. I think some people are put off by the religious nature of it.
[00:00:13] K WHATELY: I think for me, the religious element of so much of his output isn't off-putting despite the fact that I, I'm not at all a religious person.
[00:00:22] S MCGINNIS: When you think about the choral writing, the, and writing for the voice, that if course is linked to text, that there, there is a desire for a universality in that which I think is really moving.
[00:00:40] J BLUMBERG: I think there's, there's a lot to learn from it. I think we put it in its context and then we also need to scrutinize it as, as modern citizens of the world.
[00:00:49] I think it's, it's too brilliant to cast aside as music of the past. I think it's, it's, it's ever new.
[00:00:56] R WILLIAMS: I don't suppose he's thinking this music is going to be, um, a standard for centuries to come. I don't think he's thinking when they eventually put a probe, a deep space probe in space, they ought to put this piece of music in there as an example of what the human race is capable of.
[00:01:18] I think he's thinking, "This is needed for next Sunday. I'll write." And, "Oh, it works upside down. Oh, it works in retrograde. Oh, look it, you know, look, if I do this at the fifth, I can do a canon." And that's like someone just solving a crossword clue at his table. If we had any way of saying to him, "Do you realize that your music is going to have this life after your death?
[00:01:44] That it's going to surround the globe, um, because that's how music can be disseminated in the future and, and that people are going to be looking to you as, as the kind of father of music?" I think it... You know, he, he would've laughed, I'm sure. 'Cause we, we... It, it's only in a modern day that we begin to think about that because we understand now that music can, can reach everybody.
[00:02:12] N PHAN: Hi, I'm Nick Phan and this is Bach 52
[00:02:20] Last summer, we had the chance to take Bach 52 out into the wild, as it were. We filmed two episodes live at the Tanglewood Learning Institute as part of their programming there last August. And the first of these conversations features Chad Smith, the president and CEO of the Boston Symphony. Chad was extraordinarily inspiring during this conversation, speaking about what he thinks arts and cultural institutions can offer our communities and our world and our society in today's increasingly secular world.
[00:02:55] And also talking about why he thinks Bach, and by extension, Western classical music, are for everyone. As part of those performances at Tanglewood, we included a lot more music than we usually do for a Bach 52 episode. And I had the pleasure of working with the wonderful musicians of the Berkshire Bach Society for those performances.
[00:03:15] Unfortunately, for a bunch of very boring and logistical reasons, we weren't able to record those musical performances and include them in these episodes. But what I've done is I've added one extra aria to this episode, taken from Cantata Seven, which featured in the middle of this performance. The aria from Cantata Seven is actually the aria that was featured in the very first episode of Bach 52.
[00:03:37] So it's getting a little bit of a reprise performance here in this episode. And you'll hear me and Chad talk about the challenges of being a tenor in the repertoire of Bach, because Chad himself is a former tenor. At the end of the episode, we will also feature another aria, as we usually do, this one taken from Cantata 119.
[00:04:00] I hope you enjoy this conversation with Chad Smith.
[00:04:07] Thank you. Bravo, you guys. So, um, let's get to the conversation. I, I, I don't think I need to introduce Chad Smith, the CEO and the president of the Boston Symphony Orchestra. Um, welcome, Chad. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:04:26] C SMITH: Can we first start by saying how awesome that was? Um, I, and as a former tenor, like listening to you do that, I'm like, "Thank God you're doing that and not me." I'm like, it's
[00:04:35] N PHAN: like- Chad came backstage earlier and was like, "What are we doing today?" And I was like, "Well, you are singing five arias by Bach."
[00:04:40] C SMITH: Nobody wants to hear that.
[00:04:41] N PHAN: Oh, I do. Um, so I always start these interviews off just by asking how, how did Johann Sebastian Bach enter your life?
[00:04:52] C SMITH: Um, so I, I, um, I was a singer. I, I, I was, I, I grew up as a singer. I grew up in a church, in the Presbyterian Church in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. My mom was a pianist and, uh, a schoolteacher, but she, she was a pianist.
[00:05:04] And so, and she also, um, she directed the church musicals at the Gettysburg Presbyterian Church. So I played Noah at the age of four- ... you know, parting the waters and singing. Um, so church music, uh, was always a really important part of it. But I was Presbyterian, so good church music was probably not like-
[00:05:23] not as, it wasn't as high music as perhaps some of the other traditions and I, but I, but I always appreciated that, that, um, that part of my training. Like, I, I came from a, a, a church musical background. But I remember when I got to Boston and I, I came to school at, uh, I went to school at NEC in Tufts, and, um, very early on I got jobs in, in, in college, um, as a church musician.
[00:05:45] So I was hired as a singer, a tenor, uh, to sing. I was kind of looking for all dollars to help me get through college. So I sang at a Unitarian church on Friday nights, I sang at Temple Mishkan Tefila on Saturday morning, and I sang at a Congregationalist church on Sunday. Like, whatever God, I was prepared, right?
[00:06:04] But it was, again, this, this, this appre- real appreciation for, for being what, what it meant to be a working church musician. Um, and I tell you all of that because, um, about my third year in college, I was invited to go to Emmanuel, uh, Music in Boston. Uh, the church, um, just at the top of, uh, Newbury Street.
[00:06:28] And, uh, there was a, the, a music director there called Craig Smith. And, uh, I, I, I went there because I had a couple of my friends were singing in the, the choir at Emmanuel, which was very famous. And Craig, um, did a Bach cantata every single Sunday, just for decades. Every Sunday it was a Bach cantata. And what- what- whatever it was, three or four years, you would cycle through And I remember going and I was like, "Oh, now this is, this is, this is church music.
[00:07:00] This is- ... this is church music." Um, and I was hearing Lorraine Hunt Lieberson, who used to sing there occasionally, Sandy Sylvan, um, who used to sing there occasionally. Jim Maddalena used to sing. I'm looking at you, Don, 'cause these were all people that you worked with when you were, um, when you would come through Boston.
[00:07:19] Um, and I heard this music so beautifully sung, so beautifully played, and in the space that it was intended for And, you know, I, I, growing up, I, you know, I- my parents were deeply religious. I rebelled and, you know, as I've grown older, you know, I've, you know, rediscovered that, that tradition, um, in my own life.
[00:07:41] And I found it largely through a revisitation of the music of Bach. Um, and, um, this deep connection that I have to the centrality of Bach's, um, faith, which is inescapable in his work. And so I know we're gonna talk about, like, is, is Bach's music for everyone? I have, I have- certainly have lots of opinions about that.
[00:08:03] But I, I really, um, fell in love and kind of, uh, have been on my own journey, my own faith journey that has really been propelled by the music of Bach. And again, one other, one other thing I, I, I... Again, it was my- probably my last year in conservatory, I was- when I was an undergraduate, or I m- might have been a graduate student, and we did Bach Matthew Passion, and I sang one of the tenor arias.
[00:08:23] Uh, um, and, uh, and again, that was a, that was the first time I had sung a b- a big Bach work. Um, but it imprinted on me in a pretty intense way. Um, and from that year, which was 1996, um, every year since, on, um, Good Friday, I listen to a recording of the Matthew Passion. That is just my own thing. Uh, my partner Bruce is like, "I won't see you for two and a half hours.
[00:08:51] Go listen to your Bach- ... Matthew Passion." And it's funny 'cause I started my first, my first year, I started with, um, Herbert von Karajan's recording of the Matthew Passion, which is a bit like, like driving a big Cadillac with deep comfy seats and a suspension that doesn't let you feel anything. It's that, it's that kind of Bach.
[00:09:12] Like, I've since come to much more historically informed, but, um, but it has been, it has been something that each year is really important to
[00:09:19] N PHAN: me. It's, uh, it's so interesting 'cause, you know, most people say, "Oh, I encountered it..." Like, like my story, like, "I encountered it as an instrumentalist," or, you know, playing the cello suites or hearing- playing a Brandenburg Concerto or hearing, you know, a violin concerto or playing the Bach double as a Suzuki student.
[00:09:35] Yeah. But you, you came through the cantatas. That's really interesting. Do you feel like your kind of upbringing predisposed you to that kind of... Or I mean, it sounds like your biography, sort of your life story in a way leading up to that moment kind of predisposed you to this, this magical connection in that moment at Emmanuel.
[00:09:52] C SMITH: Y- yeah. I mean, I, I, I think there was a lot. Like I was... That was... So I, I've always been deeply, um, concerned and interested in the humanities and how kind of history and how, um, different threads of the human experience inform art forms. And so for me to-- the, the context of hearing Bach in a space that, uh, where it wasn't a concert, right?
[00:10:15] But that it was prayer or that it was, um, that it was an act of devotion Um, and that it was an act of, of, of, of, of, of a, a real kind of, um, connected with, with faith for the people who were listening, not like, I'm not buying my ticket to go to the Matthew Passion. I'm like, I'm at church. Um, was I think for me, um, helped me better understand that music, right?
[00:10:38] That's ... And, and that, that was the great thing about the work that, that Craig Smith did. I mean, he brought, brought these extraordinary singers, right? You never knew who, who was gonna show up, um, uh, to sing some of these cantatas. Um, and then I was also struck by the fact that whatever there are. How many existing cantatas?
[00:10:53] 200 or so, 200 and some, right? There used to be 300, and his son destroyed 100 of them, or just didn't, you know. But you, the variety, the sheer diversity of sound and technique and, and context. It's, well, it's as diverse as the texts, um, from which they're, on which they are based. So it, it, it hooked me. Um, I, I was interested in the story of Bach.
[00:11:16] I was interested in understanding whatever it was, 1727, when the Matthew Passion was being written. Like how, you know, w- what was happening in the world, where, what was, what was his context, who did he know, right? Um, Handel was what, 30 miles away, and they never met. Like, so it, all of these things just really captivated my, my attention and curiosity.
[00:11:39] N PHAN: So normally I let people warm up to the question, but I'm gonna just drop it on you. Do you think the music of Bach is for everyone?
[00:11:47] C SMITH: So like, you- that's, that, that, it's, it, it- the short answer is yes, right? Do I think the music of Bach is for everyone? Yes. Do I see opportunities for, for, for all people to, to appreciate the music of Bach?
[00:12:00] Sure. Do I, in reality, think that that is the case? Probably not, right? There are probably for who- people for whom this music is not... It's too esoteric. It's, it's in a different language. It is not, um, it is not accessible, or it's not in a, in a, in a genre that, that resonates with their, you know. Um, but what I, what I, what I think is, I, I, I've come to is that the music of Bach, one, is so tight, right?
[00:12:24] It is, um, it is impossible if you love this art form, if you love classical music or if you are interested, you cannot escape Bach. Um, and nor do you want to. Like, it is, it is, it is a moment. There are a couple of moments in history, right? Beethoven was another one, but Bach was one where, like, it feels like all music up until, let's call it the, the early 18th century, was leading to that, to that moment.
[00:12:50] Let's call it 1727 and, and the Bach Matthew Passion. All music was leading to that moment. And then out of it exploded a multiplicity of possibilities for, for music. And we saw that across the, the Late Baroque period. We saw that through kind of the blossoming of, of really kind of diverse musical voices in the Classical period that were defined by region.
[00:13:10] And then you saw it again in the early 19th century, this m- this sense that it was coming together, these threads of history were coming together in Beethoven, the inevitability of Beethoven, the Third Symphony as like a, a, a, a, um, kind of a, a spark or a fulcrum. Um, so I, I, I think, you know, I do think that there is, there are pathways into this music for everyone.
[00:13:36] And, and again, I could be, you know, I could say, "Ah, you know, it's not for everyone." Like plenty of my friends, like I- when I was living in LA, "Ah, it's not, classical music's not for me." And then I remember one time when I was in Los Angeles, um, I was running the Hollywood Bowl at that time, and we invited Yo-Yo to come and do the six Cello Suites at the Hollywood Bowl.
[00:13:57] I don't know if any of you know the Hollywood Bowl. Yeah. It's an 18,000-seat venue in the center of the city, right? The bustling Los Angeles. It is a place where on one night it will be Coldplay, and the next night it is, you know, the orchestra, on the next night it is, you know, you know, Elvis Costello, and the next night, right?
[00:14:19] And I- 18,000 people came. Literally 18,000 people came for Yo-Yo to play the Bach Cello Suites. It was him on that enormous stage, one person, one cello, and one spotlight. For two and a half hours, I have never heard a quieter audience. And sure, right? Most of them came because of Yo-Yo, right? Like, "I'm gonna go and hear Yo-Yo Ma, of course."
[00:14:47] But to hold an audience for two and a half hours with a single instrument on that massive stage in a place where, you know, it is, it is so easily to be distracted, um, reminded me of the power of this music. It's... There's a reason when you come to hear the Boston Symphony, and a soloist plays a great concerto, and they play an encore, that 50% of the time it's Bach that they play.
[00:15:17] N PHAN: So I mean, to me, I'm really curious about the thought process leading up. I mean, we all know and love Yo-Yo Ma, so okay, great. But, uh, did it feel scary to say, "We're gonna invite one person and have him play the music of one composer in a town which, you know, is arguably maybe not on first- at first glance a classical music town"?
[00:15:40] Which I'm sure you'll disagree with 'cause of your time there. But, um, you know, it's, it's a Hollywood town. I mean, Hollywood Bowl's amazing 'cause you, like, look out and there's, like, Julie Louis-Dreyfus sitting in the front row, and, like, you know, whoever. But it's, um, it's, you know, Bach seems pretty- Seems kind of esoteric choice, and I, I mean, at, at first glance.
[00:16:00] And did you think that? Or were you just really confident the whole time?
[00:16:02] C SMITH: No, I, I think we... Look, I think when you're talking about a project with Yo-Yo, you do what, you do you, that's where he is, right? Right. And, um, so there's a, there's a sense of doing that. I, what I didn't know is how the audience would respond.
[00:16:13] I didn't know how... I knew that they would respond well to Yo-Yo, but I didn't know how they would respond to that sense of quietude, that sense of, um, immersion in the music, right? Um, and the, the, the cello suites are interesting, right? So one of the... There's so many things that I love about the music of Bach, right?
[00:16:30] It is that, that it is, he is the master contrapuntalist, right? You heard it. Somehow this moto perpetuo thing, this sense that the piece begins, and it just is propelled forward by these lines that are spinning out melodies that are seemingly endless, but all the instruments are doing it. And at different times, functional harmony is kind of playing out, right?
[00:16:55] At the, at the time that these melodies are going this way, functional harmony is happening like this. And somehow that pulls us forward. It pulls us in and pulls us forward. That is, that is a, a g- a gift that, that, that he has. But he was also like, you know, he, he, his, his life was... You know, he wasn't like an itinerant musician, right?
[00:17:17] It's not like he was- he wasn't like Mozart doing the, the grand European tours, right? His life was, was fairly contained within a, within a region, right? But somehow he, he absorbed these styles of France and these styles of Italy. And so things like the Bach cello suites or the, the, the partitas or even the orchestral suites had these, these musical, um, aroma like the gigue, the gavotte.
[00:17:48] All of these things found their way naturally into the music of Bach. And now for many of us, like the gigue and the gavotte is, I think of Bach when I think of those things. The tarentell- well, not the tarentella. That was not a Bach thing. But- ... you know, there are... But some of these, these, these dances from so many different places, he so masterfully kind of absorbed and, and defined that now we think of those regional dances as, in my ears, his.
[00:18:16] N PHAN: So, I mean, the pri- you're kind of getting at my- where I wanna go next, which is, you know, you're the- you're, you're sitting at the top of this incredibly wonderful organization that has the potential for so much impact, not just in the state of Massachusetts, but like globally, you know? And, um, it's a classical music institution.
[00:18:36] And as you've s- as you've been kind of saying, you know, I compare Bach a lot to Shakespeare. Mm-hmm. You know, there's, for me, the St. Matthew Passion is Hamlet, right? That is just like this pinnacle in Western classical music, much like Hamlet is in Western literature. And there's like a before and there's an after.
[00:18:53] And everything is in dialogue with Bach, whether it wants to be or not, and whether he wanted it to be or not. And that's kind of an amazing thing. And so part of the reason I'm asking this question a little bit is like we, we kind of end up asking it of classical music in general. And so then that leads me to wonder, here, with this wonderful series of platforms that impact people in all sorts of ways, do you think classical music f- is for everybody?
[00:19:19] And how does that vision play out in the work that you're doing here?
[00:19:23] C SMITH: Um, yeah. I, I, again, I, I do, right? I think, I think our, our, our challenge, um, is to Um, explain the diversity of experiences that one can have with classical music, right? I think one of the things that has defined in a narrower perspective what classical music is, is the experience by which people consume or attend, right?
[00:19:53] But what's wonderful is that there is ... The diversity of experiences by which we can engage with this art form is vast. Um, and I'll give you an example. Um, two nights ago, Harry Christopher was here with, um, The Sixteen. And, you know, there have been amazing concerts this summer. Many of you have been to many of them.
[00:20:12] The concert I was looking forward to most was that concert. Um, and I love The Sixteen, and I love the music of the Renaissance. That's just one of my, like, deep passions. Talk about music that is not for everyone, right? Like, I- there are very few people who say, "Renaissance music, that's my jam." Right? Said no one ever.
[00:20:32] But, um, but for me, that is like, that is my happiest place. Um, and there was this concert where The Sixteen sang the music of Byrd, so a 16th century, uh, composer. Um, and, and paired with the music of Arvo Pärt, a 20th, 21st century composer, still, still alive. And they are similar. There's, there are similarities, right?
[00:20:58] They're deeply spiritual composers. Um, and they represent different, very different times by 500 years. But the experience of listening to it, I was sitting there rapt in my seat, and one of my colleagues had her 19-year-old son, um, who, you know, not a ... Was just about to go off to college, and he said, "You know, Mom, I really want to just go out on the lawn, and I want to listen to this there.
[00:21:20] I want to kind of lay back on the lawn, and I want to listen to th- to this concert." And, and afterwards he said, like, "That was amazing. Like, I'd never, I would never have listened to this music. But listening to it, seeing the stars above me, kind of feeling connected to the earth in this way, um, was, you know, was very, very powerful."
[00:21:39] And that's, that's classical music,
[00:21:42] N PHAN: right?
[00:21:42] C SMITH: That's classical music. Um, as we are, um, in church or as we are in our, our synagogues or whatever faith traditions that we are in, there is music of praise that, that is, is, that, that we connect with potentially. And so I, I, I do think it is, I, I do think it is for everyone.
[00:22:04] I think that we have to, we have to, we have to be open to the idea that, that there isn't a narrow way to present it or experience it. I always think about that at the Boston Symphony, like, we give, let's call it 100 classical concerts a year. Our opportunity is to present that music in different ways for different people.
[00:22:27] Some people want to come to temple, and I love that. They want to come. They don't want to hear anything. They want to be sitting beside someone who is not moving, right? They don't want to move. They want, like, this perfect pristine environment. That is important, right? That is an important way to hear our art form.
[00:22:46] There are some who want to come and bring their kids because they want to- that's the point in their life and they want to engage with us, but their, you know, their kids might move around a little. That's okay. We have to find ways for our art form to engage with families. There are some who, who want to know absolute- they want no talking.
[00:23:05] They don't even want program notes. It is blasphemous. I know everything I need to know about this music. Great. We've got that. But there are some who, who say, like I did when I was a kid, like, like, "Why was he writing this piece?" Like, what was... What, what compelled Schubert to write Winterreise? Like, why? He was only 31.
[00:23:28] That's a pretty dark set of texts. Oh, he was dying. Oh, okay. This is the last year of his life. Oh, okay. Yeah. So for some people, there is that need or that desire to understand more. We just have to be more creative and more open to creating different experiences for people to fall in love with this work.
[00:23:50] N PHAN: Thank you. Um, on that note, I think we're gonna take a bit of a break. Yes. And we'll do, um... I'm gonna call my musical colleagues back out. Welcome back, everyone. Great. And, uh, we're gonna do one more aria for you, and then we'll come back and chat in a few minutes. This next aria is taken from Cantata 7. The, the Bible reading that Sunday tells the story of the baptism of Jesus, which incidentally is the only time in the Bible that the Holy Trinity appears in one place.
[00:24:19] It's the only place where you see God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. And Bach does this wonderful thing where he paints this picture in a really fun way. This is for two violins and tenor, and so there you have a three, right? The thing is in a compound meter. It's in what? Like 9/8, I think. I could look at my music as soon as I get it set here.
[00:24:41] Um, and so that again is, like, series of three, and nine is divisible by three, right? We get into this whole numerology nerdy situation. And then it's also the violins begin by outlining triads in A minor. A minor is, like, such a pure key. There are no sharps and flats. So it just means it's just all natural notes.
[00:25:01] There's no sort of shading on it, if that makes any sense, um, for those who don't read music. And yeah, it's a... So it's kind of like a pure trinity triad situation, which represents this new beginning that B- that Jesus is experiencing in the story
[00:25:23] MUSIC: ARIA & RECITATIVE FROM BWV 7
[00:30:25] N PHAN: Please welcome back Chad. Um, yes
[00:30:34] You know, um, I actually, the last time I sang that aria was at Emmanuel Music. Mm. Yeah, which was a lot harder then 'cause we were at 440 and not 415. So- Oh. Yeah. True confessions, I prefer it the lower pitch. Um,
[00:30:49] C SMITH: so- That is, that is like a, that's like a real thing.
[00:30:52] N PHAN: It is. And-
[00:30:53] C SMITH: It's a real thing. Like, the difference between f- 440...
[00:30:56] So, you know, f- how many of you... 440 is, is when the pitch resonates at a certain level- Hertz, yeah ... and, and hertz. And, um, it, uh, it's gotten the A, our A, has gotten higher and higher over the years. Um, it's an issue for us at the orchestra too because I think we tune to... I'm looking. It's... I don't know if Tony's here.
[00:31:20] 441. We're at 441. So we're at 441. But for example, uh, many European orchestras are at, like, 443.
[00:31:28] N PHAN: Ugh.
[00:31:29] C SMITH: Um, baroque orchestras are at, like, 415. So it's super interesting. Like, you have solos come in. They have to kind of play slightly higher, or singers have to sing at a slightly different... It is, it's like a real thing.
[00:31:40] It is a real thing. And I also think, like, as a tenor, like, I remember the... And again, I was, you know, I was not Nick Phan by any stretch. But, um, it, it sits in a really, really awkward part of your voice at 440.
[00:31:54] N PHAN: It can, yes.
[00:31:55] C SMITH: Right? So it's this, this part of your voice, the passaggio, which is really a place where, you know, you're singing.
[00:32:01] It kind of narrows as it goes, as it goes kind of up into the, the head voice. And it, and at 415, it's much more comfortable obviously. And it feels more natural. And then at 441, it just, like-
[00:32:13] N PHAN: Yeah, it starts to feel- I don't know how you do
[00:32:14] C SMITH: it, but you
[00:32:14] N PHAN: do it, so. Well, you're very sweet. I, it's, um, it feels a little, like, Verdian once we get into it, it, in pieces like that wh- which sit up there.
[00:32:21] Some of them it's okay. Yeah. I, I... How
[00:32:25] C SMITH: nice to know-
[00:32:25] N PHAN: Sorry, we
[00:32:25] C SMITH: just, like, totally nerded out on hertz- We're having a good time ... and 440 and 441. Apologies.
[00:32:29] N PHAN: All I have to say is how nice to know that you understand my struggles. Um-
[00:32:36] Um, so we, we were having a conversation the other day in rehearsal about that aria, actually. And someone's, you know, said, "Oh, wow, it's a great aria." And I was like, "Yeah, it's great music." And then someone said, "Well, what's it about?" And then we had a chat, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, that's kind of strange." And it's...
[00:32:49] It was this amazing thing where, like, you know, it's this, that, that story about a baptism and the Holy Trinity and blah, blah, you know. The monotheistic/polytheistic intersection of Christianity. You know, like, we... I- it's suddenly like, "Oh, is it for everyone?" It, like, kind of comes to that conversation. And you were talking a little bit about, um, sort of, like, your practice, for instance, every Good Friday to, you know, your thing is to listen to Matthew Passion, which I applaud that.
[00:33:15] That's amazing. I would do the same thing if I were home on Good Friday. That's fantastic.
[00:33:20] C SMITH: You're usually probably performing the Matthew Passion.
[00:33:22] N PHAN: Occasionally. Um, and sometimes at 4:42. Um, and it's... There is this thing about Bach's music, right, where a lot of musicians talk about how it's a spiritual place for them.
[00:33:36] It's a place where, you know, we connect as artists with the spirit and the thing that's kind of bigger than us, that we maybe have ideas about what it is, and maybe we don't know what it is. Uh, you know, my, my first orchestra conductor when I was, like, 11, you know, used to say... She was a cellist, and she would, like, be like, "If I'm having a bad day, the first thing I'll do is just lock myself in a room and play Bach cello suites."
[00:33:56] C SMITH: Yeah, but, uh, but Bach was also, like, a pragmatist, right? His, his employer was a church. So I mean, it helped that he was a deeply spiritual man and that, that for him, his, his Christianity was, like, un- It, it... To say that it was unshakable is just to, to imply that there was any shakability, right? For him, it was a, it was a very, um, solid, like, a marble column kind of thing.
[00:34:22] But there were times when he wasn't working for a church, right? There were times in his life occasionally when he was employed secularly, um, by Prince Leopold, I think, and who was not a particularly, you know, spiritual man. And then Bach wrote a lot of music which was not spiritual. He wrote a lot of his secular works during that time.
[00:34:42] So, so I think it is, like... That, that part of kind of the Bach I also love. Like, he was a deeply pragmatic man. He was the son of a, of, of a, of a musician. I think he was third or fourth generation, like, working musician. You know, he had-
[00:35:02] 21 children. Um- He was
[00:35:04] N PHAN: prolific.
[00:35:05] C SMITH: Uh, I mean, many of them died. Um, so I think he had living, who lived into adulthood are, like, 13 and some crazy number, like six or seven of them were working musicians themselves and composers that we still think about, Carl Emmanuel, you know, uh, Johann Christian. Like, we can...
[00:35:23] His father, for him, this work was, was both spiritual, but it was also, like- A paycheck.
[00:35:30] N PHAN: Yeah, yeah. No, and he was, he had a job to do, right? This kind of leads me to this next question. I know that the Boston Symphony has pillars, speaking of pillars, in programming, and one of them next, this, this season or next season is, um, faith in our time.
[00:35:44] Yes? So for me, I f- I feel like in many ways the world is sort of drifting into a more secular vein. I mean, we may have these kind of like religious influences in, on our sort of politic and society that are still kind of rearing their heads, but b- by large, like in large part we are sort of drifting to a more secular vein as a society.
[00:36:05] And I kind of, as we do that, at least in this moment, you know, who knows if that's a permanent trend or not, I have this feeling that this space, like the concert hall, for us as musical artists is a sacred space in a way. It's becoming a place where we can engage with that spirituality. And it's, you know, I mean, art in general is a place where, that is kind of filling that gap.
[00:36:29] And I just, I wonder, you know, what was the... In that spirit, what was the thinking in choosing to make that a pillar of the, of the programming here?
[00:36:38] C SMITH: Yeah, so, so, so part of it is, is how we think about, um, what is the role of an arts and cultural organization in our world today? Um, and I, you know, why does the Boston Symphony exist?
[00:36:49] Like, why do we deserve to exist, right? The Boston Symphony does not exist to perpetuate itself, right? We exist to serve. We are here to serve audiences. We are here to serve artists, to amplify, um, and uplift their voices and, and let them tell their stories, and we exist to push our art form forward. That is why after 143 years, we hope that we are still seen as good stewards of generations of, of investment in this extraordinary institution.
[00:37:26] So at the... If, if that is why we exist, right? To serve, then how do we do that? We do that by exploring the ideas that artists must tell today, and that means centering in our work ideas, questions. How can our arts organization, how can the Boston Symphony help all of you understand yourselves, each other, and the world better?
[00:37:56] And so it, it, it gets back to a fundamental exploration of the humanities, those things that allow us to understand ourselves, each other, and the world better. And as we as an organization have spent a year really thinking about this idea, then we come down to, well, what are those burning questions in our world today?
[00:38:18] What are artists raising their flag about to say, "Hey, I'm concerned about this. I'm thinking about this." Because it's, I'm pretty sure that if they're thinking about it, it's important to many people. So, you know, we're exploring several themes. Um, one of those themes is the natural world and our environment, right?
[00:38:38] As the environment changes, it- we're looking at it anew. But for example, artists have been exploring kind of human interaction with the natural world since the Clunistic monastery days of Hildegard von Bingen, right? So for 1,000 years, this has been an exploration. After the Fifth Symphony of, of Beethoven, he wrote the Sixth Symphony, duh, but he wrote it as a pastoral, which was, in so many ways, the antithesis of the Fifth Symphony.
[00:39:10] So this is a big exploration, climate and our world. The second is this idea of the American experience. We're an org- we're an organization that l- exists in Boston in a time of the 250th, you know, celebration, commemoration, marking of this democracies, um, by quincentennial, right? Artists are talking about the American experience.
[00:39:37] How does our world understand this place differently than Copland did or differently than, than the part songs of William Billings in the 17, whatever that is, 1730s in Boston. And the, the third big one that we, we've, we're seeing is that, yes, I think in many ways our world is s- parts of our world are secularizing, right?
[00:40:02] At the same time that parts of our world are not. And that within our communities, we're seeing kind of a tribalism within, within faith traditions, um, that is playing out in many different ways. And artists, and I, I actually see composers and artists exploring faith traditions and grappling with the dev- with the divine as something that is, is, is happening more regularly.
[00:40:30] Whether that is, you know, John Adams over the past decade writing or two decades writing El Nino, like a reconsideration of the Nativity story or the Gospel of St. Mary as a reconsideration of the resurrection. Whether that is, you know, um, uh, Carlos Simon writing a gospel mass. Whether that is Sofia Gubaidulina writing, you know, her, her, her passions.
[00:40:55] These are things that even today artists are exploring So shouldn't we allow for our spaces to be places of exploration as they have been in the Western tradition for a thousand years, right? And that's, that's a big thing when we go back to, to Bach. Like, Bach is a Western composer, right? He's a, he's a Saxon composer, Saxony.
[00:41:20] Our art form up until about 120 years ago was largely a European art form. There is no escaping that, nor, nor do we want to escape that. That is our art form. In the past 120 years, it has changed dramatically. It has become a global art form. Arguably, the biggest audiences for classical music now are not in Europe and the United States, but in Asia, in China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Sing- Singapore.
[00:41:49] We could... So our, our world is changing, and the art form is changing, and our, the conversations that our art form can now have are so much broader. So for, for me, the idea of kind of faith in our time is like, let's look at these things. You know, I'll, I'll, I'll preview where we have a, a, a really wonderful composer who's writing a new version of The Creation, which will be next year paired with Haydn's Creation.
[00:42:15] And how do we explore this idea of creation? Um, there are many different creation stories that have actually been told in classical music, more, uh, indigenous, um, um, uh, creation stories that, uh, Villalobos, uh, um, uh, uh, put to music. So many different ways that we can explore this, this, this topic. Um, so and that's exciting to me.
[00:42:42] That is, that is where we can have rich conversations. And ultimately, I think arts and culture spaces are places where we want to be able to have those rich conversations. At times when the Zocalo is becoming more, um, divisive, our arts and culture spaces, we hope, can be places where we can really have thoughtful conversations around, um, how artists are perceiving our world.
[00:43:10] N PHAN: That's fantastic. I mean, it's so moving to hear you talk about opening the doors and opening the lawns, you know, so that you can hold a space for us to explore things, and approaching everything as kind of making it accessible for people to meditate on and take it or leave it, or to grow from it in whatever way it impacts them.
[00:43:27] That's really beautiful. Is there anything else you'd like to add to this conversation?
[00:43:31] C SMITH: Um, can I just add how awesome it is to hear you sing Bach arias? Seriously.
[00:43:42] And I, you know, it is, like, you know, to, to do this, I think you were, where, you were in California what, two days ago?
[00:43:46] N PHAN: Yes, mm-hmm.
[00:43:47] C SMITH: So it is like, whatever it is, 10:00 AM your time, like- It's like nighttime ... this is not easy. This is not easy. Um, but I will just say, um, um, Nick, and I, we are so grateful to have you, um, leading this exploration.
[00:44:01] Um, we are so grateful for your artistry. You and I have known each other for a long time, done a lot of projects together. Um, but it is so clear how passionate you are about this, and how personal it is, and that's, that's ultimately what excites me about running a place like the Boston Symphony. It's not what I wanna do.
[00:44:17] It's not... It, it is what you want to do, right? We are a platform. We have aggregated these resources for artists. So to the extent that Bach 52 is where your passion is, we wanna be your partner in telling those stories, so thank you.
[00:44:33] N PHAN: Thank you. I'm very grateful. Thank you, Todd.
[00:44:39] Chad Smith, everybody
[00:44:52] Throughout my conversation with Chad, as he was talking about how arts and cultural institutions today can sort of function as a civic square in our increasingly divided world, I kept thinking about this aria from Cantata 119. Cantata 119 is a church cantata, but it was not composed for a specific Sunday.
[00:45:13] It was actually composed for a ceremony that inaugurated the new town council in Leipzig. The piece is sort of a blessing to the city and its inhabitants, and also a musical blessing for these new city council members in Leipzig. You'll hear me throughout the aria refer to the people of the linden trees.
[00:45:33] This is a bit of a reference to the fact that Leipzig itself was called the City of Linden Trees. Also, linden trees are commonly found in the town square in Germany, and it's a very easy place for people to meet up when they're looking for each other. Hope you enjoy this aria from Cantata 119
[00:45:57]MUSIC: ARIA AND RECITATIVE FROM BWV 119