EPISODE 9
BACH AS CONNECTION: COMMUNAL MUSIC MAKING
with Kate Sheeran
former executive director, Kaufman Music Center
Dean, Eastman School of Music
What if Bach was never intimidating — just music? Grammy-winning tenor Nicholas Phan sits down with Kate Sheeran, Executive Director of New York City's Kaufman Music Center and incoming Dean of the Eastman School of Music, for a wide-ranging conversation about the power of communal music-making, what music education can look like when barriers are removed, and how Bach became the unlikely soundtrack of a teenager's summer camp experience.
Kate traces her relationship with Bach from singing chorales at Kin Haven music camp as a teenager — not knowing they came from cantatas and passions, just knowing they sounded beautiful — to leading one of New York City's most extraordinary music institutions, where over 2,500 students study each year, including one of only 14 high school baroque orchestras in the United States. Their conversation touches on the difference between music being "performed by everyone" versus "for everyone," the way music education develops leadership and collaboration, and why Bach, of all composers, might be the best model for the 21st-century musician.
This episode also features a performance of the tenor aria from Cantata 157, Ich lasse dich nicht — described by Nick as perhaps the most difficult tenor aria Bach ever wrote, spare in orchestration and relentless in its upward reach, depicting a soul grasping desperately for comfort.
ARIA
Ich halte meinen Jesum feste from Ich lasse dich nicht, BWV 157
PERFORMERS
Nicholas Phan, tenor
Debra Nagy, oboe d’amore
Elisabeth Reed, cello
Corey Jamason, organ
SOUND (BWV 157 only): Lolly Lewis | VIDEO (BWV 157 only): Clubsoda Productions | VIDEO (Interview): Nicholas Phan
This episode was filmed in partnership with Les Délices and the San Francisco Conservatory of Music.
This project is a fiscally sponsored project of FRACTURED ATLAS.
To find our more information and to make a TAX-DEDUCTIBLE donation to support the continuation of this project please click the button below
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] J BLUMBERG: I've always loved Bach from a i- intellectual, wonky, theoretical, musicological standpoint. I think I... We practiced writing chorales in a theory class
[00:00:13] S MCGINNIS: My earliest memories of playing serious music were playing Bach minuets, and then later preludes and fugues.
[00:00:23] STUDENT 1: I was already practicing two hours a day at six years old, and Bach, of course, was a part of that because as we grow, they're given to us, uh, violinists to learn
[00:00:36] J BLUMBERG: It go, I think it goes even back further to, you know, I th- I was aware of the cello suites as early as high school.
[00:00:42] I grew up playing trumpet, so I wasn't playing much Bach, but was definitely ingesting some of it, m- even before getting to college.
[00:00:49] Z REAMS: I think as a kid, I actually started with viola, and I used to listen to Bach a lot. I think actually the people who used to come help my parents clean the house, they would play Bach while they cleaned.
[00:01:05] So Bach would be, like, playing in the background, and I would be like, "What is this?" And then I started playing a string instrument and started listening to more Bach. That was my really kind of random early exposure, and then it kind of stuck when I really started, you know, focusing on classical music.
[00:01:23] S MCGINNIS: It was so exciting as a very young musician to be able to put my hands on music that wasn't simplified for me as a young musician.
[00:01:34] It just, it was the music, right? And it felt so serious and important and legitimate in a way that, that was important to me.
[00:01:45] STUDENT 2: In the past when I was playing Bach, when I was younger and stuff, Bach was a emotional sort of piece for me, and I would, I would really invest myself emotionally in playing it.
[00:01:55] J BLUMBERG: I think as a singer, it always felt, because I, I always felt like a baritone, not a bass.
[00:02:01] I can't quite sing as low as some of this, this repertoire is, so, but I just stuck with it because th- that was how I felt in my early 20s, I guess. And there were things I wanted to do. I put Bach in my senior recital in college. I felt I didn't have all the vocal tools yet, but I had, uh, a brain that identified with w- what Bach was trying to do.
[00:02:22] I was drawn to the, the perfection and the mathematics about it, the, the way that, that h- he treats the, the singer like an instrumentalist.
[00:02:33] STUDENT 1: And you don't really think much of it at the time when you're young playing Bach, and then I realized when... Actually I came to college, my connection to Bach became so much deeper.
[00:02:46] S MCGINNIS: And the ability to see that there was, you know- As a very, very young musician, I could play the, the first C major prelude, right? And, and that's a pretty accessible thing to do. And then to see this entire, these entire two books of preludes and fugues that just, uh, uh, with increasing levels of complexity and varied lev- levels of complexity that can be with a, with one for their entire musical life.
[00:03:18] And even going back to the C major prelude, certainly I don't play that now how I played it when I was a very young musician, and that, I think that speaks to something remarkable about Bach as a composer too, is this, the m- the ability in him to write such incredibly complex, sophisticated, disciplined music, and then also to write just beautiful, kind of seemingly simple music that can become more complex, I guess.
[00:03:53] And really can, in its simplicity, can invite a whole range of human experience.
[00:04:05] N PHAN: Hi, I'm Nick Phan, and this is Bach 52.
[00:04:14] On this episode, I have a conversation with Kate Sheeran, the executive director of New York City's Kaufman Music Center, and also the soon-to-be dean of the Eastman School of Music in Rochester, New York. Kate is an old friend. We've known each other a long time. We met here in New York City, and we both moved to San Francisco roughly around the same time when she came out to become the dean and provost of the San Francisco Conservatory of Music for a spell.
[00:04:47] While she was living in San Francisco, we were actually neighbors and lived right next door to each other. Now she's here at the Kaufman Music Center and about to wrap up her tenure here in a few weeks. And she graciously invited me to be one of the artists in residence at the Kaufman Music Center this season.
[00:05:04] Kaufman is an extraordinary institution. They have sort of three prongs of programming. One is the Special Music School, which is a music-focused and centered school that is part of the New York City public school system. Another is the Lucy Moses School, which is an after-school and continuing education program in music that serves anybody from the ages of 18 months all the way up until the age of 80 and beyond.
[00:05:30] And also, there's Merkin Hall, which has a presenting series of world-class artists all season long. Kaufman is a really unique institution and has a really- Interesting and singular perspective on music and how music can transform people's lives. And Kate speaks really eloquently about the institution's history, the work that they're doing, and what it's like to be surrounded by young people who are passionate about music all day long.
[00:06:05] It's been an extraordinary experience to be a part of Kaufman's work this season, and getting to work with the young people who are at the Kaufman has been transformative and inspiring. We've been working not only on helping them become better singers and better musicians, but also asking them, what does it mean to be an artist who is also an engaged citizen?
[00:06:30] And how do you use your art to help you process and interpret the world and its happenings? Kate talks a lot about how she's always been a musical person from childhood all the way up through now, and how Bach has always been a part of that, whether she knew it or not. And she talks a lot about the power of communal music-making and how Bach is the music that actually taught her how special and wonderful that can be.
[00:06:59] And she also talks not only about how Bach is important for a music education, but also how it provides a really special opportunity for cultural exchange. Again, it's been a real privilege to be a part of Kaufman's programming this season. I'm actually wrapping up my artist residency with them on May 30th with a recital that features a world premiere by the composer Vivian Fung called Lamenting Earth, composed for me, the pianist Myra Huang, and the Jasper String Quartet.
[00:07:34] Vivian has done an extraordinary thing with Lamenting Earth that has made it really tailored to this residency in that she has taken poetry written by the students at Kaufman and incorporated it into her song cycle. It's a truly collaborative and powerful piece, and I'm really looking forward to giving the world premiere of it on May 30th at Merkin Hall.
[00:07:56] Listening to Kate talk about all the work that she's done here in her years at Kaufman is really inspiring, and it leaves me so excited to think about what she's going to accomplish in her next chapter up at the Eastman School of Music. I hope you enjoy the interview, and be sure to stick around for the aria at the end of this episode taken from Cantata 157, Ich lasse dich nicht.
[00:08:30] So let's just start off basic Why don't you tell us about your musical journey and how Bach maybe fit into that?
[00:08:39] K SHEERAN: I would say I identify as a horn player still.
[00:08:42] N PHAN: Okay.
[00:08:43] K SHEERAN: I grew up in a tiny town in Vermont. My extended family is all from here in, uh, in New York, and my parents moved to Vermont just before I was born.
[00:08:51] So I got into music in various ways. In an organic way, my mom was always singing. My grandpa, who was a FBI agent who grew up in Brooklyn, was always playing the piano. So, like, sing-alongs to me were, like, the best thing you could do. As you know, I still love a sing-along. Like, that, that to me is, like, the best.
[00:09:12] We still find occasion. We had a sing-along with the staff here yesterday. Like, that's the best. So that's probably, like, the, the fun way in. The f- the formal way in was through my music teacher when I was a kid. So I tried piano. Didn't stick. Tried various things, but when I was in elementary school, I had a music teacher that I adored who said, "You have great pitch.
[00:09:33] You should try French horn," and that stuck. Through a series of great teachers, right? When you grow up in a small town, there aren't that many options, so I was lucky to find great teachers, and then my mom saw that that was my thing, signed me up for all kinds of things, including music camps, and later on youth orchestras, and drove me all over the place.
[00:09:56] That led me to Eastman and then to Yale, and then to a lot of different places, and eventually here to New York. And I think along the way I knew education was important to me. I have a tendency to take on leadership roles. Uh, I think when I was a kid that was more, like, in social settings, and now it's in work settings, and that kind of led me to these types of jobs.
[00:10:24] That's a- That's, like, the, the, the quick story.
[00:10:28] N PHAN: That's great. It's l- it's a natural Capricorn tendency to want to lead.
[00:10:33] K SHEERAN: As you know.
[00:10:34] N PHAN: Yes.
[00:10:34] K SHEERAN: Because we're 364 days apart.
[00:10:36] N PHAN: Exactly. So as a horn player, did Bach, like, figure into your music education?
[00:10:44] K SHEERAN: Yeah. As a musician, Bach figured it, and then also as a h- as a horn player.
[00:10:49] I don't know if we've ever talked about this but, like, when... Uh, have I talked about Bach ch- singing Bach chorales with you? No. Oh, okay. So anyone who went to Kin Haven, which is for me many of my friends that are now my adult friends, probably many peop- friends we have in common. When you go to Kin Haven, you spend the...
[00:11:07] It's six weeks, and it's for teenagers. You spend the first three weeks learning the same Bach chorales and madrigals that they've learned for years. But in those days it didn't even register to me that I was learning the chorale from the St. Matthew Passion or- oh, something from a cantata or whatever.
[00:11:25] You learn a book of chorales so that throughout camp when you're waiting for dinner, or before you go to bed, or, uh, the last day of camp, whatever, you're all singing chorales all the time, which is, like, the most beautiful thing. But when you're a kid they're just, like, sort of like your high-class camp songs.
[00:11:47] N PHAN: Wow.
[00:11:47] K SHEERAN: Have we ever ta- we've never talked about that? No. Okay.
[00:11:49] N PHAN: So Camp Haven is for, like... Is it a music camp?
[00:11:52] K SHEERAN: It's an... Yeah, for instrumentalists. So the focus is on chamber music, so everyone there is an instrumentalist. Or, eh, orchestral instruments plus piano.
[00:12:00] N PHAN: Uh-huh.
[00:12:01] K SHEERAN: So essentially the size of a large orchestra.
[00:12:04] So you play chamber music in the morning, you play orchestra at night. But you have chorus throu- throughout the week. Everyone sings in chorus because they believe in it for musicianship. We do the same thing here-
[00:12:14] N PHAN: Right ...
[00:12:15] K SHEERAN: for the young kids who are all instrumentalists, but they all sing in chorus. It's the, like...
[00:12:21] The, the campus is constantly filled with singing. So that was my first engagement with, with Bach in a real way. But it did, it... I wasn't even really thinking about it. It was just like, wow, isn't this cool? We're, like, in the concert hall waiting for the concert to start, and the concert hall erupts with Bach chorales, or Renaissance madrigals, or, uh, yeah, various things.
[00:12:45] N PHAN: I mean, that's so valuable. You're learning how to sight sing.
[00:12:47] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:12:48] N PHAN: Which, you know, I think my music education was so focused on... I mean, it was Suzuki, so it was a string instrument. So I was, like, mostly l- figuring out what my- Yep ... fingerings were and, you know, you're learning the notes. But, like, how to play the instrument is- Yeah
[00:13:02] really the thing. But, like, that's a musicianship skill.
[00:13:04] K SHEERAN: Exactly, which they didn't come out explaining, right?
[00:13:08] N PHAN: Right.
[00:13:08] K SHEERAN: Which is even better in some ways. And that's... My first summer there too, I also played the first Brandenburg Concerto. Again, this is the whole concept of, like, if you don't tell kids it's hard, they just do it, which is such a part of what I observe here on a daily basis, right?
[00:13:26] And then later I was like, wait a... I, I don't know if I was actually ready to play that first Brandenburg Concerto, but it was so fun, right? And when else was I gonna do that? So as a horn player, got to play that. I pr- it was years later before I got to do that. I think I was probably 15.
[00:13:43] N PHAN: Wow.
[00:13:43] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:13:44] N PHAN: That's incredible.
[00:13:45] So... And were you just singing the, the words in English to the chorale?
[00:13:49] K SHEERAN: Yeah, in English.
[00:13:50] N PHAN: Okay. Like, the- And no one was thinking about the religiosity of the moment?
[00:13:52] K SHEERAN: Right. 'Cause it was, "Now all the woods are sleeping," or, um, the, you know... What's the, what's the one... O Sacred Head, um, which is also the basis for American tune, Paul Simon
[00:14:05] N PHAN: s-
[00:14:05] K SHEERAN: Right
[00:14:06] song. Um, you know, they're all from either a cantata or chorale from a passion or-
[00:14:11] N PHAN: Right.
[00:14:12] K SHEERAN: Right.
[00:14:12] N PHAN: I think that one's
[00:14:13] K SHEERAN: from the Christmas cantata. So it's like, it was Martin Luther's words and then translated into English.
[00:14:17] N PHAN: Wild.
[00:14:17] K SHEERAN: And some of them, the translations in English are religious, and some of them aren't
[00:14:22] N PHAN: Right
[00:14:23] K SHEERAN: And also sometimes they do at the end...
[00:14:26] Actually every summer at the end, all of the students sing in chorus and the faculty plays as the, the orchestra accompanying them.
[00:14:33] N PHAN: Oh, wow.
[00:14:34] K SHEERAN: And some of those years it's a Bach cantata.
[00:14:36] N PHAN: How cool.
[00:14:36] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:14:37] N PHAN: And so when did it register that it was Bach, and, like, Bach has this stigma around him of greatness?
[00:14:45] K SHEERAN: Yeah, I don't know that I...
[00:14:46] I guess it was, like, sort of a smooth transition from there to college. Right And so you're, like, already pretty indoctrinated into music nerd-dom, right? Yes. And so the, the, y- you know, you, you're kind of... Then you're learning the history and things of it. And then, and then it wasn't until maybe after I was working more in music that I became familiar with, like, the, the repertoire that young string players play and things like that.
[00:15:19] Obviously when you're in college you're hearing more of the, the cello suites and the, you know, and, and they're performing the whole Passions and the things like that. So I, I don't know that the stigmas ever really registered until, like, into my adulthood-
[00:15:35] N PHAN: Interesting ...
[00:15:35] K SHEERAN: because of that. Yeah. It
[00:15:37] N PHAN: was just music until recently?
[00:15:39] K SHEERAN: Yeah, I mean, I think the, the stigma of classical's kicked in at some point in college-
[00:15:44] N PHAN: Mm-hmm ...
[00:15:44] K SHEERAN: for me.
[00:15:45] N PHAN: And
[00:15:45] K SHEERAN: so what
[00:15:45] N PHAN: was-
[00:15:45] K SHEERAN: It was like, "Well, why are we, why are we talking about classical?" Because it's not actually classical. You know, you have the whole debates in college about, like, classical's actually a period of music, so why are we using that word so much?
[00:15:55] And you just try not to say it. I still don't usually use that word. '
[00:15:59] N PHAN: Cause music is music.
[00:16:00] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:16:01] N PHAN: That is so wild that you guys were doing that at, as teenagers.
[00:16:03] K SHEERAN: They still do it, and they started it, like, I think in the '50s or '60s.
[00:16:07] N PHAN: Huh. Yeah, my, my summer camp experience was not that. Interlochen didn't really do Bach chorales.
[00:16:14] Like-
[00:16:14] K SHEERAN: Yeah ...
[00:16:15] N PHAN: you just... I think it was, like, what? The Interlochen theme that we all just sang, which is a, like, a quote from Howard Hanson, which I believe is- Yeah,
[00:16:22] K SHEERAN: Symphony Number 2.
[00:16:23] N PHAN: Yes, exactly.
[00:16:23] K SHEERAN: Yes.
[00:16:24] N PHAN: Y- you know, you've, you've did the professional musician thing. Mm-hmm. You're doing the professional musician thing, and you've really transitioned into this largely administrative, you know, leadership role.
[00:16:34] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:16:35] N PHAN: And- I mean, tell us first of all about the Kaufman Music Center and, you know, what happens here- Yeah ... for people who don't know.
[00:16:42] K SHEERAN: So the, we're l- a performing arts center with a heavy emphasis on education, but it's kind of... Our programs are delivered largely through three areas, but then there's many things that span the three areas.
[00:16:53] So we have two schools. The largest of the community performing art schools here in Manhattan, Lucy Moses School, which is music, theater, and dance. We have over 2,500 students study here on a, in, in any given year. 18 months old, you can start, 18 months to 18 years, and then adults. Wow. So about two-thirds of the students are young people and about a third are adults.
[00:17:18] And it's every age within that and every level. So a person can take their first lesson or class or exposure to the, any music, theater, and dance, or take a very rigorous pre-conservatory track, or start as an adult for the first time. Any of those things are possible at Lucy Moses School. And many students do go on to conservatory and professional life in music or theater, dance.
[00:17:42] And then we have a special music school, which to my knowledge, to our knowledge, is the only one like it in this country. It's kindergarten through 12th grade. There's about 300 students. And the way it works is it's a public-private partnership with the Department of Education here in New York City. So they provide everything on the academic side, and we fundraise for, fund, implement, and run everything on the music side.
[00:18:06] MUSIC: Wow.
[00:18:07] K SHEERAN: So if you get in and you're in kindergarten, you get two lessons a week on your instrument plus your curriculum. So it's age appropriate. So when you're in kindergarten, it's Dalcroze. And then it moves into music theory, later on music history. By the time you get into high school, ensembles enter, music technology, leadership classes, orchestra, chorus.
[00:18:30] You know, there's a huge vocal, as you know, you're working with them, there's a huge vocal curriculum, all of that. And we just give it for free.
[00:18:38] N PHAN: Wow.
[00:18:39] K SHEERAN: Including lessons, including everything. Just remove all the barriers.
[00:18:42] N PHAN: That's incredible.
[00:18:43] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:18:43] N PHAN: And then the third prong is
[00:18:44] K SHEERAN: just- The third part is Merkin Hall, where you sang last night.
[00:18:47] So we present professional artists, art song, jazz, chamber music. It's a 450-seat hall. And sometimes people think, "Oh, that's a funny combination." I actually think it's an amazing combination. It's like this ecosystem of reflecting our values of what we think music and the arts should be. So who we're putting on stage should be who we think the role models should be for our students.
[00:19:10] You know, what our values in education, it, it should all be reflected together. And then more and more, our artists are working with our stu- And so the, um, the Artist in Residence program, of which you are a part this year, I started when I got here. 'Cause to me, it's like the perfect way to showcase what is possible really here pretty uniquely.
[00:19:30] Because what happens is the artists come in- intending to do one thing. It always grows, morphs, changes a little bit because as you get to know the students and as the students get to know the artists, it's like these cool relationships are formed and, uh, expand throughout the year.
[00:19:47] N PHAN: That's amazing. I mean, it's so comprehensive because at least as an artist, you, you know, so often we just truck in and then we truck out.
[00:19:54] And- Yeah ... the opportunity to really engage with young people of all levels and, you know,
[00:20:06] try and help the f- ensure the, a great future- Yeah ... for the art form is really nice. Right. And also, I mean, you know, being that age, like I would've salivated for that kind of an experience.
[00:20:16] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:20:16] N PHAN: You know?
[00:20:16] K SHEERAN: And it's also like once, you know, the students... A master class is one thing, right? 'Cause you're like, "Oh, I get to meet this person once."
[00:20:24] But here i- in this, what I hope is that the students are like, "Oh, this is a person I'm getting to know. I think I could d- maybe I can do that too."
[00:20:32] S MCGINNIS: Right.
[00:20:32] K SHEERAN: Maybe that's not like a martian career that only five people can have. Maybe I can de- design it. And also, we pick people like yourself, who have made their own career as an individual, right?
[00:20:44] Who's like, "I'm shaping the way that I'm gonna do this, not how somebody tells me how to do it, not because there's only one way to do it." And I think that's such a great model for students. Like, "Oh, there's so many ways to participate in music." Right. There's so many ways to sh- shape a career, and that's what I hope they see reflected.
[00:21:02] And you see that, 'cause then they do these projects that are like, "Whoa, I never would've thought to do that when I was a kid."
[00:21:06] N PHAN: Wow.
[00:21:07] K SHEERAN: They're... Th- Like, the fun part of education is we should plant as many seeds as we can, and I shouldn't guess, be able to guess what they're gonna do, right? Like 20 years from now, they're gonna do stuff that I- I'm not even thinking about, right?
[00:21:21] I hope.
[00:21:22] N PHAN: Right. Well, and you know, I mean, part of like learning to be a great artist and to think about, like you're saying, in, develop your independent mind.
[00:21:30] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:21:31] N PHAN: Like, you get to know yourself, and you get to know what you want- Exactly ... what your goals are. And no matter what you end up doing, that's gonna serve you well.
[00:21:36] Yeah. Whether you become, you know, a famous professional musician, or whether you do something else in music, or whether you do something not related to music at all.
[00:21:43] K SHEERAN: Yep.
[00:21:44] N PHAN: I mean, those skills will serve people for life, I- Yeah ... think. It's amazing. Well, thank you for the opportunity to be here.
[00:21:51] K SHEERAN: My, our pleasure.
[00:21:52] Times a million.
[00:21:53] N PHAN: It's... I mean, seriously, it's a real, it's a real honor to be able to work with these guys. They- they're really impressive. I mean, they're so smart. They're so quick. They- they care about music, and they have real depth. And-
[00:22:07] K SHEERAN: Mm-hmm ...
[00:22:07] N PHAN: it's exciting to- to get to see them work and to see them over time, as opposed to, like you say, just once at a master class.
[00:22:15] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:22:16] N PHAN: So you know, does Bach figure into the education here?
[00:22:22] K SHEERAN: Yeah, both in terms of performance and in terms of coursework. So all the students have a curriculum in music history, so it enters in in different, you know, in different times. So I think- At some point in the probably, you know, w- it, later in middle school they'll come in.
[00:22:40] But obviously it'll come back in various times throughout their music history curriculum. They're talking about this all the time. We have a baroque orchestra actually at the high school. I think they just played at a, a conference in Boston, and I think the stat is there are 14 baroque orchestras in the US for high school students.
[00:22:57] N PHAN: 14?
[00:22:58] K SHEERAN: 14.
[00:22:58] N PHAN: And this is one of the 14?
[00:22:59] K SHEERAN: This is one of the 14. So in, in terms of performance practice, it's factoring in, in a ensemble, and obviously they're learning Bach solo rep all the time, right? And, and I think one of the things that's unique here is all of the students play all the time. So again, it's this thing that I was talking about is where does the stigma come in?
[00:23:18] It- I don't think it does.
[00:23:20] MUSIC: Right.
[00:23:20] K SHEERAN: Right? Because they're learning the same thing. Y- I don't want to speak for the students, you know, because they're participating in other programs and they interact in all kinds of ways with students who don't go here. But in terms of their school experience, they're all having a similar experience with variation.
[00:23:37] So yeah, it factors in all the time. I also hope, you know, Bach as a musician is probably more like what we think of musicians now in terms of the range of skills and what you need-
[00:23:49] N PHAN: Right ...
[00:23:49] K SHEERAN: than what we thought of as a musician that got a little too narrow in the 20th century. You have to be an orchestral violinist or you have to be a, in a chamber group solely, or you have to be, you know, so narrow, I think.
[00:24:05] N PHAN: Right.
[00:24:06] K SHEERAN: So I think that that is a good model in a lot of ways for-
[00:24:09] N PHAN: For young musicians ... these
[00:24:10] K SHEERAN: students.
[00:24:11] N PHAN: Yeah. Yeah. This idea that you have to have a lot of skill sets, and you're gonna be doing a lot of various things with those skill sets.
[00:24:17] K SHEERAN: Yeah. And that's good. That's not bad.
[00:24:19] N PHAN: Yeah.
[00:24:19] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:24:20] N PHAN: It's so interesting.
[00:24:20] I mean, we revere him so much right now as a b- you know, because history has done him the favor of putting him on a giant pedestal. Yeah. But actually, he probably viewed himself a little bit... I mean, clearly he thought seriously about his work and was an artist, but there was also, like, a heavy element of tradesmanship to it.
[00:24:37] Yeah.
[00:24:39] K SHEERAN: I wonder what he would think about his, like, the, the reach of his music, the reach and the longevity of his music. I mean, he may have thought about the longevity, but the reach is so... You'd have to think about so many things, including the invention of the internet and air travel and all of that to even think about it.
[00:25:02] It's crazy to think about, right? Like-
[00:25:03] N PHAN: Yeah. It's pretty wild. It's, I mean, also what people have done with his music. I mean-
[00:25:09] K SHEERAN: Yeah ...
[00:25:10] N PHAN: everybody from, like, the Swingle Singers to, you know, Nina Simone. Like-
[00:25:13] K SHEERAN: Yeah ...
[00:25:14] N PHAN: it's-
[00:25:15] K SHEERAN: Right. Like, the English translations are just the tip of the iceberg. Right? You know.
[00:25:22] N PHAN: Exactly. So I mean, in this sense, it's, I mean, do you think the music of Bach is for everyone, which is the sort of core question we're asking with the series?
[00:25:35] K SHEERAN: I knew you would ask this- ... 'cause I watched some episodes. And I, I was trying to think of, like, is there any music that isn't for anyone? For isn't for everyone? Mm. Is there any music that isn't for everyone? And I also... I wonder if that question has to be segmented a little bit. Like, for everyone, does that mean performed by everyone?
[00:26:00] Does that mean consumed by everyone? It's tricky, 'cause I could think of music that is maybe shouldn't be performed by me, but that I would like to listen to, or vice versa. So yeah, I think it's for everybody. But I- I'm just, like, such a sucker for communal music-making, and I think there, there are... Because I grew up in a Western classical tradition, for me it's one of the...
[00:26:31] He's one of the composers or, or it's one of the bodies of music that I know spans the most amount of people, and that to me is inspiring.
[00:26:40] N PHAN: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:41] K SHEERAN: But s- for someone who didn't grow up in a Western classical tradition, that might- his music might not be at the top of the pile. So Bach is one of the go-tos when I think of, "Oh, everybody knows Bach."
[00:26:52] N PHAN: Right.
[00:26:53] K SHEERAN: But that's from my perspective and my experience.
[00:26:57] N PHAN: Yeah. It's fi-... The, the question came to me actually in an interview. I was t- I was in Germany. We were in, in Weimar. We were doing a Bach academy. Yeah. There were these young musicians, instrumentalists and singers- Yeah ... who flew from all, like, something like 37 different countries to come to work with Helmuth Rilling and study Bach's music.
[00:27:18] Mm-hmm. And they were, they were doing a documentary, and this German documentary filmmaker, like, posed that question in the middle of the interview to everybody. And, you know, my first response was like, "Oh yeah, it's for everybody." And then I... Like, is... The minute it came out of my mouth, I was like, "That is so unexamined."
[00:27:33] So that's why I'm asking this question- Yeah ... of everybody. And then now that I've started asking it, it's funny people wanna break up the question.
[00:27:38] K SHEERAN: Right.
[00:27:39] N PHAN: You know, you realize it is sort of like an unwieldy- Right ... almost too broad question. But I think that's, that's why it's a good one because it sparks so many different avenues of conversation.
[00:27:49] And I mean, I... Why do you think... What is it about the communal music-making aspect that's so important for you?
[00:28:02] K SHEERAN: Hm.
[00:28:03] N PHAN: I mean, it's been a part of your life your entire life. Yeah. So that's obviously one part of it.
[00:28:08] K SHEERAN: I don't...
[00:28:11] I, I'm trying to not answer with examples. But- ... you know, when you think of, like, any group of lawmakers right now, I, I wish they had sung in choruses or played in string quartets more.
[00:28:25] N PHAN: Yes. '
[00:28:25] K SHEERAN: Cause you learn communication. You learn- You learn how to lead and follow and give constructive criticism, and you... All these skills, right?
[00:28:34] That's not, when I was a kid, why I thought it was the most fun thing ever, but it has given me that in adulthood, so that's why I appreciate it. I also still appreciate it 'cause it's really fun. So I, I think at its core, I think it's really fun to be able to sit and just be able to do that, right? Whether it's singing at a holiday party or reading chamber music with your friends, it's just really fun.
[00:28:59] And it's like, it's so... I don't know. It's like heartfelt and, and things. But I... But as an adult and as a d- an adult who runs educational institutions, you see kids develop these skills of communication and leadership and collaboration and all these things.
[00:29:19] N PHAN: I mean, you're forced at the end of the day, right, to do something as a group.
[00:29:23] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:29:23] N PHAN: It... For, for better or for worse. Largely for, generally for better.
[00:29:26] K SHEERAN: Right.
[00:29:26] N PHAN: Right? 'Cause it's fun.
[00:29:27] K SHEERAN: Right. So it doesn't necessarily have to be Bach, but that's, you know, one avenue.
[00:29:35] N PHAN: Yeah.
[00:29:37] K SHEERAN: Listening to religious music of many religions is a beautiful thing too. It's a w- it's a door into someone else's beliefs.
[00:29:46] Whereas like I don't necessarily believe all the things in his music, right, from a religious perspective. Right. But he was writing it for a purpose. He was writing it for churches. He was writing it for his job. Okay. And if somebody else is writing it for their temple, or if somebody else is writing it for their mosque, or if somebody...
[00:30:06] That's a beautiful window into someone's culture if we can encourage people to do that, right? It's, it's a way to... It's culture. It's sharing. It's a way to... Again, that's my lens because I'm a musician, but it's one way to share someone's culture, where someone else's would be visual art or textiles or-
[00:30:24] N PHAN: Right
[00:30:25] K SHEERAN: you know.
[00:30:25] N PHAN: There's something for me about music that's unique because it requires... You know, someone writes it in time, and then there's... You know, it, it sits on a page.
[00:30:34] K SHEERAN: Yep.
[00:30:35] N PHAN: Yep. But for it to really be the full thing, you always need a living being to-
[00:30:39] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:30:40] N PHAN: Right ... breathe life into it. And because of that, it's like this weird time machine, so you have...
[00:30:45] And because of that, it also... It requires like human interaction, whether you're just a listener or whether you're in, in the midst of communal music-making with other people.
[00:30:52] K SHEERAN: Yep.
[00:30:53] N PHAN: So I mean, I think you're right. The si- It, it's like such an i- powerful and unique avenue of cultural exchange. It's interesting, as you talk about cultural exchange too, I, I, I also wonder...
[00:31:05] You know, like we do things l- of different religions all the time, right? Mm-hmm. Like people go to yoga classes and like, you know, they might go for the workout or whatever, but... And there's a spiritual element to all these things and... I mean, I think there's things that we all like take from other religions, right- Mm-hmm
[00:31:25] and other cultures that are common.
[00:31:29] K SHEERAN: Yeah. But it, it's like, y- you know, and we don't stop and think about it all the time, but mayb- maybe that's the, the s- the readjustment, right? When you're
[00:31:41] experiencing music, to, to think about how that you're learning about someone else's culture or, or things like that. And that, I think, is... Actually, that's an interesting thing here because students are learning hi- history of the world and music history, which w- I experienced and you probably experienced for the first time in college-
[00:32:03] N PHAN: Right
[00:32:04] K SHEERAN: at a much younger age. And to see the dis- the, the way they contextualize is really interesting because they immediately contextualize those things because they're sponging it up much earlier.
[00:32:17] N PHAN: Mm-hmm. And so the process
[00:32:18] K SHEERAN: then is- And, and they can, and they can, they can... They're actively participating in it, in it, in a way because they're performing music of the time that they're learning about.
[00:32:29] So there's a whole element of that too.
[00:32:33] N PHAN: This place seems really unique to me.
[00:32:34] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:32:35] N PHAN: And I, I wonder, you know, how long have you been here now?
[00:32:41] K SHEERAN: This is my sixth year.
[00:32:42] N PHAN: Wow.
[00:32:43] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:32:43] N PHAN: Time flies.
[00:32:44] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:32:44] N PHAN: Feels like just yesterday. Yeah. We used to be neighbors, everybody. Feels like just yesterday you were living with me in San Francisco.
[00:32:49] Six years. We're in such a unique dialogue right now about sort of
[00:32:58] i- is classical music, quote-unquote classical music, elitist, and is it, you know, in general for everybody? Mm-hmm.
[00:33:04] K SHEERAN: And
[00:33:04] N PHAN: I mean, how do you see this place contributing to that dialogue within the larger context of New York City, which is a big community?
[00:33:15] K SHEERAN: Yeah, and we're, we're in a, we're positioned in a funny place, like physically positioned in a, in a, kind of interesting place for that, right?
[00:33:23] And me- metaphorically positioned in an interesting place for that dialogue. But-
[00:33:28] N PHAN: Say more about physically positioned
[00:33:30] K SHEERAN: So we're on West 67th Street between Broadway and Amsterdam, two blocks north of Juilliard, you know, five blocks north of the rest of Lincoln Center. Perfect neighborhood actually for schools and a smaller size concert hall.
[00:33:45] And the performing arts. That's- it's the neighborhood you wanna be in Right And complementary to our neighbors. So if you're a kid, you can go to these concerts, you can do all these things. I'll, I'll, I'll tell you a little history of the place that, that... It's interesting context. So the... In 1952, a woman named Zippora Hochberger started the Hebrew Art School, which is the origins of what became Kaufman Music Center.
[00:34:11] And she grew up in Germany, studied music at college in Israel. Her parents were killed in the Holocaust. She eventually moved to New York. So she said music saved her life. She started this school in honor of her parents, which is, I... Like, how lovely is that? So she moved it around. It moved around the city.
[00:34:31] It landed here in 1978, so it's after Lincoln Center was born, I think. Uh, Lincoln Center was born. Lincoln Center was built. Moved into this building with 400 students with a small community school. We serve close to 4,000 students. 50,000 people come here for, um, concerts every year. It's, it's super interesting how that grew.
[00:34:56] So that's our roots, but obviously now we're a secular institution, serve a population as diverse as New York City. But what I love about that is, like, it, it was built to uplift the Jewish community after World War II. That's the origin of the place. So you feel it. Like, all the things we're talking about, it was built to uplift people.
[00:35:13] Mm-hmm. How love- how lovely. Like... And we're surrounded by kids studying music. So it's, it's a different origin story than if you start as a performance venue, which is, again, a wonderful thing to share music with audiences, but it's a different kind of thing. So I think about that all the time, right? So how do you do that?
[00:35:35] How do you do that given how we've grown and changed and added New York City Public School? And it's a fun challenge. So that's sort of, like, mission stuff. I also think... So the access piece is still built into that origin story, but has grown. My predecessor started special music school. All of that is in there.
[00:36:00] So this is a place if you walk in the door and you wanna study music, you can do it. We'll figure out a way for you to do it, and do it at a really high level. So we have people who are beginners, we have kids who are winning competitions and going to Julliard every year and all that stuff too. So it kind of is a combination of various things.
[00:36:23] N PHAN: I mean, it's moving to hear because, I mean, in a way, it, it sounds to me like you're talking about how it doesn't matter what music it is. It has- Yeah ... this power to, like, uplift lives. That's right. And
[00:36:42] I mean- In a way, it almost seems like maybe we should be more focused on that than-
[00:36:47] K SHEERAN: Yeah ...
[00:36:48] N PHAN: whether or not classical music is dying or- Yeah ... has a future or et cetera, et cetera.
[00:36:53] K SHEERAN: And for, for me specifically, the combination of the programs we have here is like we can address a lot of the challenges that the field is having on a smaller scale, right?
[00:37:07] So even in COVID, right? So because of our size, we weren't too big. We, we, we didn't have to completely pause.
[00:37:17] Z REAMS: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:17] K SHEERAN: Right? So we did 200 storefront concerts, and we had a book project that ended up getting published that ended up on television in a concert with the Philadel- the Philadelphia Orchestra with over a number of years.
[00:37:31] And we could open our hall enough for filming, and we could... So that's one thing. But now we have our two different schools, but we can only take so many kids at the public school, and we don't... New York City doesn't have enough wind and brass students, so we're working with community centers in Harlem and the Bronx to jumpstart wind and brass students who wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to study music to funnel them through to our high school and other arts high schools.
[00:37:58] Like, there's... I could go on and on about this, but it's just like, okay, what can we do? The, the thing here is always like, what can we do? What can we do? What can we do? Right. Which again is like the vibe of the place. It's not like, "Oh, no. N- no one likes music." "Poor us." And I think a lot of that comes from being surrounded by kids, and everyone's happy.
[00:38:23] And when you have a million kids around who are just so pumped to go practice their instrument, y- you're not gonna be downtrodden a- about-
[00:38:31] N PHAN: Right. There's a bright future
[00:38:32] K SHEERAN: ahead. Yeah. Exactly.
[00:38:34] N PHAN: And also so much possibility.
[00:38:36] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:38:36] N PHAN: It's really moving the- to... I mean, the key is just access, access, access, right? I mean...
[00:38:42] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:38:43] N PHAN: It, it can be for everybody as long as we make it accessible.
[00:38:46] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:38:46] N PHAN: Which it seems like that's really the mission of what you guys are doing.
[00:38:48] K SHEERAN: Yeah. And that takes a huge number of people, and we're very lucky that, like, there are... We have a huge community and board and all these people who have supported this place for a long time and continue to.
[00:39:01] And I think it's partly because when you walk in the doors, you get that feeling of like, "All right. Okay. This is my place." And so we have to figure out... One of our challenges is, you know, the world is less attached to physical place, right? So that's a happy challenge. What does that, what does that mean for us-
[00:39:21] N PHAN: Right
[00:39:21] K SHEERAN: as we go forward, right?
[00:39:22] N PHAN: Again, possibility.
[00:39:24] K SHEERAN: Yeah. I mean, back to our, back to our topic of like Bach would have no idea that it would make it outside of his little town, or maybe he would. But
[00:39:34] N PHAN: Certainly not to this extent.
[00:39:35] K SHEERAN: Yeah.
[00:39:36] N PHAN: I mean, I was just performing Bach Passions in Hong Kong. Like, can you imagine?
[00:39:42] Could he have imagined? I have no idea. What's amazing me about your story is that it starts out with how you were so fortunate to have this access even growing up- Yeah ... in like a sort... In Vermont- Yeah ... in like a not super urban place it sounds like. And, you know, having these experiences where you just were like, "This is great music," and no one underestimated you or your desires, and your ability to process it, and here you are.
[00:40:07] It's, like, changed your life, and now you're providing these opportunities for it to change all these thousands of kids' lives. That's fantastic.
[00:40:13] K SHEERAN: But I think that's... For me, that's music, right? And that's because I met all these people and all these things be- A- all these things happened for me because music education and the connections you make, and that's the connecting thread.
[00:40:29] Oh, we might be from completely different places and completely different backgrounds, but, "Oh, you know that Bach Chorale too? We're friends." You know?
[00:40:38] N PHAN: I love
[00:40:39] K SHEERAN: that. Yeah.
[00:40:40] N PHAN: Bach is connection.
[00:40:41] K SHEERAN: Right?
[00:40:42] N PHAN: That's great. I really appreciate you doing this.
[00:40:44] K SHEERAN: I'm very happy to have done it.
[00:40:46] N PHAN: Thank you.
[00:40:46] K SHEERAN: It's nice to have time to chat.
[00:40:59] N PHAN: The aria for this episode is taken from Cantata 157, Ich lasse dich nicht. The cantata was composed for the funeral of a chamberlain of Saxony in 1727, and then Bach eventually incorporated it into his cycle of church cantatas. It usually got performed on the feast day of the Purification of Mary and the Presentation of Jesus, which tends to take place in February of each year.
[00:41:25] The aria talks about holding on to Jesus because this person needs the comfort of Jesus so desperately. And it's an extraordinarily beautiful piece, but it's also perhaps the most difficult tenor aria in the repertoire that was composed by Bach. It's difficult because it's both super, super high and super, super exposed.
[00:41:49] You have this sense that the voice is constantly reaching for the heavens as it climbs higher and higher and higher. And the orchestration is quite spare. It's just orchestrated for an oboe d'amore and continuo, which means a small organ and a cello. So there's not really much to hide behind as the tenor as you sing through the top of the range.
[00:42:13] It has these really long held notes that sort of illustrate this idea of holding on tightly. And also, the aria talks a little bit about grasping forcefully Jesus's face because this person wants Jesus's blessing. And you hear the forcefulness and the urgency in these melismas of fast notes that span the range.
[00:42:36] It's an extraordinary piece of music. It's extremely difficult. And- It's a really interesting way of depicting this text. The text of the aria is: I hold my Jesus tightly. I will not let go now or ever. He alone is my resting place. Therefore my faith forcefully grasps his countenance full of blessing, for this comfort is indeed the best.
[00:44:08] MUSIC